Jan 31

Bill Wood aka Bill Brockbrader : 2 videos – Interview and Livestream Q & A (see below)

Above & Beyond Project Looking Glass: An interview with an ex- SEAL


This is an interview with an ex-Navy SEAL, who, during the years 1992-2000 was sent on top secret bombing missions in the Middle East, predominantly in Iraq. Years after the first Gulf War when we were supposedly not at war with Iraq yet he and SEAL Team 9 were targeting Tomahawk Missiles on a monthly basis taking out targets that were increasingly “soft”… involving deaths of hundreds of innocent civilians. Find out how this highly trained young man and his team were coerced by the military into purposely destroying villages and creating future terrorists as part of a plan that would ultimately serve their dark purpose, the war on terror and 911.

And if that weren’t enough, hear how he was trained in Area 51 as a specially gifted group of highly classified psy spies to see beyond the famous Looking Glass technology into the future involving 2012 and beyond.

Groundbreaking in every way.

Kerry Cassidy
Los Angelles, CA


Note: this version has edited out the technical delay at the beginning and end.



Note: this transccript has not been checked by Project Camelot for accuracy…but I hear from the Coordinator they are 99% accurate!


Bill Wood Interview by Kerry Cassidy

KERRY CASSIDY (KC): This is Kerry Cassidy from Project Camelot [Project Camelot Productions].

I’m here with Bill Wood. He’s going to be talking about his experiences as part of a special unit, a SEAL unit, in Iraq and other places around the globe as part of the American military.

Some of his testimony may be considered to be in violation of his National Security Oath, but we are going to be trying to stay within the parameters of that.

He is going to, first of all, speak on the subject of a disclaimer in regard to a project that he is using this for on a personal level.

BILL WOOD (BW): Hi. I just want to disclose to everybody that I am writing a fictional book about this interview and the things that I discuss in this interview. The reason for this interview is for purposes of marketing that book, and that book, of course, is fiction.

KC: Okay, great. And so at this point, we are going to start in the beginning. I’d like you to talk about why you came and contacted me; what group or groups you, in a certain sense, represent, if you want to use it sort of loosely in that term.

BW: Okay. Basically, I don’t really have any group that I represent.

However, there are many, many people — both former and current military — that have a huge amount of concern over what the members of the military know to be what’s really going on in the Middle East and places that we are occupying currently outside of this country.

Those concerns have grown more and more throughout the years and it’s to the point where a lot of these current and former military members speak. The best description of these military members would be “Oath Keepers”

And an Oath Keeper is somebody who basically focuses primarily on the Oath that they took when they joined the service, and not so much what they’re ordered to be — keep secrets, or to tell a secret, as opposed to what is in the best interests of the Constitution and the country.

KC: Okay. Let’s say also that there’s a purpose behind this that has to do with the NDA.

BW: The main purpose for this interview was the enactment of the National Defense Authorization Act.

The individuals that I speak with on a regular basis have grown a consensus that this is the end of the erosion of our constitutional rights, and it pretty clearly spells out in a lot of paperwork that America has been declared a war zone.

American citizens are subject to arrest and detainment outside of the constitutional protections of trial by jury, the right to an Attorney and the right to being charged with a crime, even, is stripped away in that bill.

I don’t believe most of the American public has been properly informed via the media, so we’re trying to get the message out and get some support, in the fact that we cannot continue to allow the progressive erosion of the constitutional rights, and expect to have our rights ever be taken seriously at some point.

KC: Okay. So, at this point, Bill, when you approached me, I really had no idea what this was going to be about. And it was quite surprising that you had the kind of disclosures that you have, and some of the background that you have.

So, what I’d like to do is go back through your testimony, because at the time I didn’t have a camera.

BW: Mm hm.

KC: And I do want to say that we’re in a public place here, but we are, we are forced to be in this kind of a public place for a number of reasons that I can’t explain on camera, but take it from me, there’s a purpose for this.

And at this moment what I’d like you to do is start from the beginning, the way you did with me. And eventually I want to work our way to some of the more, what you might call Top Secret disclosures that happened later on.

Some of the experiences you’re going to be relating, at this time may not be considered quite as risqué, or damaging, or — to the U.S. military, as might otherwise have been perceived back in those days.

BW: Mm hm.

KC: Back in those days you had a very special clearance, and so I would like you to talk as much about that clearance in setting up… you know, setting the stage for the story, as possible.

BW: Okay. So, in June of ’91, I joined the U.S. Navy, and I was less than a year into my Navy experience and training in Fire Controlman A-School, when I was approached to take part in a Special Team.

At the time I wasn’t really told that much about it other than it was secret. But, from my background and my family involvement in the military, I was excited to take the opportunity.

Shortly after that, I was reassigned to San Diego, , and was assigned to a ship that was being built so that gave me a lot of time to go to schools, which — that comes in handy at this point, because very quickly after that I was taken to this special training school, and found out the details, the details of which were…

The basic sense is that I would be controlling Tomahawk Cruise missiles using specialized equipment that nobody really knew about in order to fly those missiles from when they come over the horizon to line of sight of the target.

To drive the missile directly into the target, [to] be able to verify prior to the targeting of any kind of building or designation that it is the target that we are looking for — then it is approached and the Tomahawk missiles are used against it effectively.

Then we also do bomb damage assessment after that.

KC: Okay. The reason you got involved in all of this was because the Americans found — was it during the first Iraq war that their Tomahawk missiles were going off-target?

BW: There was a problem with Tomahawk missiles in the first War.

If anybody can remember the baby factory incident, when buildings tend to look alike, they have trouble; the Tomahawk missiles have trouble telling which one’s which.

And the problem that they had, that they found they had, was that it made the missiles only about 70% accurate.

And that was a big problem because we ended up blowing up buildings that the Iraqis would then put on the TV and say: They’re blowing up baby food factories.

That tended to negatively affect us on the news, so we had to come up with a solution to that problem.

KC: Okay. And so they brought you and people like you onboard. Can you explain why you were selected?

BW: The primary reason I was selected was: (A) because of my background; I came from a military family, and (B) because of my qualifying scores during training.

I found out later that they selected the people who knew absolutely everything about everything, were very good at taking tests, and very good at solving problems, which is what it eventually came down to.

It was after that that I found out that I not only scored very high on the test, I got a perfect score on the test, which is one of the main reasons I was approached, and the others in my group were approached.

KC: Okay. So what kind of a test was it, though? Is it — does it test your intelligence? Does it test your, I don’t know, is there a physical test as well?

BW: The test, the original test was the ASVAB [Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery] test, and that is just a standard military test.

It tests many aspects of how intelligent you are, how you process problem solving, how you approach different situations, and ultimately, how much knowledge you have on many, many diverse subjects.

When it comes down to it, it’s an over-blown IQ test, and…

KC: Okay.

BW: …it relates mostly to your cognitive reasoning skills.

KC: All right, and was there a physical test as well?

BW: No, physical testing wasn’t necessary for this project; intelligence was more important. They later proved that the physical portion they could fix; the making somebody smarter — very difficult to do.

KC: [Laughs]

BW: [Laughs]

KC: Okay. Right here — I know this is kind of going way ahead, but at a certain point you were trained and selected also, you found out later, because of your psychic ability. Is that right?

BW: I guess the proper term would be potential.

KC: Uh-huh.

BW: Everybody possesses a certain amount of inherent ability towards upper-level thinking, and what really matters is to how prone they are to being able to effectively use it, and not let lies get in the way. [Laughs]

KC: Okay. And so, you were trained in a very special place, to enhance those skills. Is that right?

BW: Lots of special places, but one in particular that I think people would find most fascinating, yes.

KC: Which is?

BW: One place that I was able to train at in particular that people would be familiar with is Area 51. I was able to go there for a single training course that was popularly entitled Advanced Psi.

And basically, what that class did for us is teach us to use advanced intuition, basically bringing out your ability to know things ahead of time, predict things, delving into reading minds, and predicting the future, if you want to use plain English to get into it.

KC: Okay, and would you say that you were trained as a Remote Viewer?

BW: Certainly that goes into the ballpark or the wider spectrum of what we were being trained to do.

The wide spectrum is to trust, hone and use your intuition effectively enough that you could rely on it in tactical situations to give you more information than your five senses were giving you.

KC: Okay. And you and the other people you worked with were a group of nine people. Is that correct?

BW: We were a group of more than nine, but it was nine people that operated. We had Officers and Senior Enlisted that helped us, and a support staff; but essentially, it was nine people that were trained to do the job, yes.

KC: Okay. And is that nine people to go into the field?

BW: Yes.

KC: Okay. And so you went to school, and then what happened? At what point did you start to be deployed, or what was the trajectory?

BW: In ’92, at the end of ’92, we started to be deployed on missions.

A basic overview of a mission would be to get to a target, usually by some extraordinary means of jumping out of an airplane or walking further than most people would imagine.

Getting within the line of sight of a target, setting up electronic equipment that would allow us to control the Cruise missile via line of sight, wait for the missile to come in-bound, sync up with the bird as it was in flight.

Then use regular airplane-type controls on the box, or the targeter, that for what people know today would be essentially flying a Tomahawk missile just like an operator would fly a regular drone aircraft nowadays.

In my description, I would say that Tomahawk missiles were the first generation of drone aircraft.

KC: Okay. So, did you have to have computer skills, special computer skills, to operate something like this?

BW: We were highly, highly trained in advanced electronics, optics, electromagnetic devices, motors, synchro-servos, and also radar and laser energy.

KC: Okay, could you repeat that one, that last line?

BW: The whole thing? Okay.

We were highly trained in advanced electronics. We also did a special amount of work with optics, with special electromagnetic devices, motor servo-synchros, and a lot of information about radar and laser systems.

KC: Okay. And so far, have we violated any kind of Security Oath?

BW: Not yet.

KC: Okay.

BW: [Laughs]

KC: [Laughs] No, I’m just going to ask you that periodically just so that we can sort of monitor that situation?

BW: Mm hm.

KC: Because we don’t want to endanger lives any more than necessary here? You know, both of us are adults and know what we’re getting involved in here.

So, at that point, you must have been deployed to a ship, right?

BW: We were deployed — I was deployed on several ships during my career. But on this particular occasion, yes, I was deployed to an Arleigh Burke class destroyer.

KC: Okay. And where was this base?

BW: It was based out of, originally San Diego, and then later moved to .

KC: Okay. And so, from this point, you were — can you describe the team you worked with, briefly, and then how you were sent out on missions, and where, specifically, the problems began?

BW: Originally, we were deployed to missions throughout the Middle East, in various countries. The one that mainly I spent time in was Iraq and that area of the Middle East.

To most people’s understanding, I think everybody thinks that the Gulf War ended shortly after it began in 1991.

However, I do have personal experiences that would say that the level of occupation and the level of violence that the American military perpetrated between 1992 and 2000 would be surprising to most people, I believe.

KC: Right. So, at this point you were deployed with a team on these missions. Is that right?

BW: Right. Basically the designation that we had was SEAL Team 9. Now, if you do all of your research, you find out SEAL Team 9 ‘doesn’t exist.’

That’s okay. Until recently, SEAL Team 6 also had the same level of security and also ‘didn’t exist’ until shortly after we killed and then a couple months after that, a helicopter was blown up, and then SEAL Team 6 really didn’t exist.

KC: Okay. And they didn’t actually kill bin Laden on that, on that foray, either.

BW: Based on the information that I had during the time that I was in the military, I do not believe Osama bin Laden was alive in 2011 when he was reported killed.

KC: Okay. So, you were deployed on missions, and you were a group of three. Is that right?

BW: Yes. We were actually three groups of three. We went out in three-man teams. Basically, we were all trained to do each other’s jobs, but we tended to do our individual jobs, mostly. We had a team leader who was a First Class Petty Officer.

We also had another member of our team who tended to concentrate mostly on weapons and protecting everybody while I was doing my job, mostly.

Then I ended up running the equipment most often and flying the Tomahawk missiles and the air surveillance drones that we would use to also cover our butts when we were moving around.

KC: Okay, so you were targeting the missile, in other words.

BW: Yes.

KC: Okay.

BW: From when I started operating in about 1992 till about 1995, most of the missions that we were performing seemed [to be] military targets and above-board, and worthwhile for the level of effort that we were putting into it.

KC: Although we were not at war.

BW: Although we were not at war, we were going after “viable,” — quote, unquote — targets, or things that at least seemed viable from the outside.

KC: Okay. But they were in — so in a sense, but they — I mean, if we’re not at war, for us to be sending a Tomahawk missile to bomb even a military installation in another country is technically an act of war, is it not?

BW: It’s very much a — it’s very much an act of war and completely violates U.N. rules and regulations, yes.

KC: Okay. And so you were doing this on a regular basis.

BW: Yes.

KC: As part of a top secret group.

BW: Correct. [Helicopter sounds in background]

KC: Okay. Are you able to describe what kind of clearance you had?

BW: The level of clearance that I had, or the designation for my Top Level, Top Secret level clearance, would be Indigo. [Helicopter gets louder]

And Indigo is a level of clearance that anybody that worked with Tomahawk missiles got that was related to SEAL Team 9.

KC: [Helicopter right overhead] Okay. So we’re having a helicopter fly over quite low at this moment, I’m not sure why, but it’s an interesting dynamic.
So we’re just going to wait a brief minute here and see if we can hear it disappear.

[Helicopter sounds fading away] Okay. So, at this point you were doing targets and you were doing them in what countries?

BW: Throughout the Middle East.

KC: Do you want to name some of those countries?

BW: Some of the big ones that everybody would recognize: Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Afghanistan, one or two in Iran, , Syria, Libya.

Those are the ones that people would most appreciate knowing about.

KC: Okay, and would this be termed asymmetrical warfare?

BW: Very much so. Based on the fact that the level of industrial revolution, complex material that we were using against these countries, they had nothing that could counteract it or prevent it. [Helicopter returns]

KC: Okay. So, let’s describe the missile itself, its range, its capabilities, and then the idea that I think you said that, ultimately, you were targeting two. Is that right? [Helicopters overhead – very loud]

BW: Correct. Tomahawk missiles are — Yeah, you like that? [Referring to the helicopter(s)]

KC: Okay, we’re having more helicopter flyovers here. I’m not sure what — we’re actually in a shopping center in Malibu. I’m not sure why we would be having some over — flyovers here. [Helicopter sound diminish]

BW: Popular.

KC: I mean, there is plenty of helicopter activity in the Malibu area, but it’s usually along the coast. Just FYI.

Okay. So…

BW: Okay.

KC: …moving right along, the capabilities of the missile itself.

BW: How Tomahawk missiles work. They’re normally sea-based launch missiles. The primary launch platform was either a class fast attack submarine, or an Arleigh Burke class destroyer.

There’re certainly other ships in the Navy’s arsenal that can launch those missiles but that wasn’t their primary purpose.

Once a missile was launched from a ship, it would go along pre-programmed way-points until it got close to the target.

Then it would use a combination of radar, lasers and terrain mapping to sneak its way through the landmasses until it got within the line of sight of the target.

The official version of what a Tomahawk missile would do at that point was compare a picture of the target to a picture that it has in its database, and designate itself upon that target based on what was inputted up to it shortly before it was launched. [Helicopters coming in again]

At that point we could interrupt the flight path of the missile by synching to it with a special piece of equipment… [Helicopters LOUD overhead now]

KC: Okay, I’m sorry; we have a helicopter again, flying very low over this building. [Laughs] I mean, if this continues, we’ll probably have to move on to some other location.

BW: That’s fine.

KC: I can’t for the life of me imagine why it keeps going over and over.

BW: No.

KC: Okay. [Helicopter sounds fading away again]

BW: Okay.

KC: Just back up a tiny bit.

BW: Okay. Once the…

KC: So you say that there was an “official” version of the targeting, right?

BW: The…

KC: Of how targets, and then there’s an unofficial version that you were involved in. Is that correct?

BW: Correct. And the way that I got involved in the launch of a Tomahawk missile was with the special piece of equipment that we had with us.

We could get in between line of sight of the missile and the target, and synch up with the missile and control it remotely from that piece of equipment.

And basically, the only thing that that does is control it, just like everybody would understand how a drone is controlled by a “pilot” that’s stationed in Las Vegas when the drone is in the Middle East.

KC: Okay. So — but you actually did seem to go on location.

BW: Correct. We had to be on location because back then the only way to exchange information fast enough with the missile system would be to be within line of sight of it.

KC: Of the target?

BW: Of the missile and the target.

KC: And the target… Okay, interesting. So you did need protection, obviously, being somewhere in the vicinity of the target. Is that correct?

BW: Correct. And that’s where all that cool advanced training came in. [Helicopters return] Experts at counter-detection and counter-surveillance certainly aided in our cause as well as… [Helicopters overhead now]

KC: Okay, we have another helicopter going. [Helicopter very loud]

BW: This one’s different, though.

KC: Yeah, isn’t it?

BW: Not the same one.

KC: Not the same. [‘Copter sounds diminish]

Okay. So… but at this point we haven’t really answered the question as to the capabilities of the missile itself.

BW: The capabilities of the missiles could be altered quite a bit. They do have the bomb-load capacity of a thousand pounds.

There were generally two types of Tomahawk missiles: one that would carry cluster bombs and a main explosive charge, and then the other missiles would just carry an explosive charge.

Generally I would deal with both kinds of missiles? [Stated in a questioning tone] However, the bomblets, or the cluster bombs, would have been dropped prior to me ever seeing the missile. That would have been done remotely, usually.

KC: By someone else?

BW: By the missile itself, on a preprogrammed path. Cluster bombs usually are antipersonnel, or small, soft targets. When we were designating targets we were usually going after buildings.

KC: Okay, interesting. So you also talked about the cost of each missile.

BW: That was one of the things that we always questioned. They were amazingly expensive… $1.2 million dollars each. And…

KC: Okay, and…

BW: Let’s just say that the one classified thing — unclassified thing that I can talk about Tomahawk missiles is to encourage everybody to get on line, [Helicopters faint in background] and figure out how many were used between 1992 and 2000, and see if those numbers ring true with the fact that we weren’t at war.

KC: Okay, very good point. So — well, let me ask you that question. Do you have any idea of the numbers?

BW: Hundreds, probably pushing into the thousands.


KC: Okay. But you were sent out on missions, didn’t you say every month? So once a month you would be doing, what is in essence, a bombing mission?

BW: On average and that I’m just one of three teams as well.

KC: So would you say that all three teams were sent out at least once a month?

BW: Though we were highly compartmentalized and I wouldn’t know, I can reasonably assume that we all did just as many missions, yes.

KC: Okay. [Helicopter sounds in background] Is this the sound of a helicopter, still?

BW: Mmm-hmm.

KC: Interesting… it’s, like, hovering!

BW: Yes, just right there!

KC: Okay. Do you feel threatened at all by that?

BW: No, but it only has to do with what I’ve been through, not that I don’t think your concerns are unreasonable.

KC: Oh. [Laughs] Okay… interesting. Yeah. Well I guess we’re going to have to wait and see what happens here; we may actually have to move on.

So at this juncture, what we haven’t talked about again is the amount of damage that could be done by one missile. And explain the notion that you used two after a while and when you started using two?

BW: Right. The most important thing to know about Tomahawk missiles was the material that they used for their explosive.

It’s called Semtex and the easiest way to explain Semtex is C-4 that you need a lot, lot less to cause the same amount of explosion. So 500 pounds of Semtex would be the equivalent of 2,000 pounds of C-4 in explosive potential.

KC: Okay… and because I don’t know anything about this, can you give me a radius? So if you targeted a building, what radius of damage would happen?

BW: The shockwave would destroy everything between fifty and a hundred yards of the building.

KC: Okay.

BW: Loss of life would be almost complete at a hundred yards.

KC: Almost complete at what?

BW: A hundred yards.

KC: From the epicenter…

BW: Anybody within a hundred yards of the bomb would… the over pressures…

KC: Okay and what about further? Further away than that?

BW: Beyond that is the potential for dying from anything from weak blood vessels in your brain to debris, and that would spread over a much greater distance, depending on the target.

KC: Okay. And these installations or buildings that you were bombing, even though we were not at war, were in the Middle East. You had intelligence that gave you a background on why that target was selected – is that correct?

BW: Correct. We always were given information about the target and what it was supposed to be and, you know, how we were supposed to be doing the mission.

Later on, after we’d been doing it for several years, we tended to question that information based on the fact that we found that more often than not the information was either kind of wrong all the way up to completely wrong!

KC: [Helicopters directly overhead again] Okay. So I just want to make sure that we cover this sort of preliminary until you go to the blow-by-blow of what went on.

And we are still having helicopters in the vicinity in the background! [Helicopters quite loud] What do you think? Should we change and go to my house?

BW: I think if we ever want to get it done, we should change. [Laughs]

KC: Okay.

BW: This is not going away…

KC: All right, yeah.

BW: …and I was thinking about that long before you were.

[Interview moved to another location]

KC: I’m Kerry Cassidy from Project Camelot [Project Camelot Productions] and I am here with Bill Wood.

We have had to move from our location where we were to a more private situation in order to take this testimony because we have been over-flown by a repeated number of helicopters that simply did not want to go away!

BW: Well, they were there long before the interview! [Laughs]

KC: [Laughs] Okay, but they made themselves very, very prominent during the interview, I have to say, so… and we will have kept that on this tape and I plan to use that part. Okay? But…

BW: I’m used to the attention. [Laughs]

KC: I’m sorry?

BW: I’m used to the attention.

KC: Oh. All right, fine… Well, I’m not quite used to that degree of attention, let’s put it that way. For me this was something of an unusual situation.

But, at this moment what I’d like to do is just maybe summarize what we’ve talked about before, because in case we do have any issues…

Having helicopters fly over is fine – it’s a problem of course – but if they’re shooting an electronic pulse at the camera simultaneously, then the footage that we’ve already shot could have been affected and what we have talked about has been excellent so far. What I’d like to do is re-cap it…

BW: Okay.

KC: …sort of in as short an amount of time as you can. And what we’re covering here is, you know, the team you were part of, the part of the service, the special training and the capability of the Tomahawk.

BW: Okay. Basically, my military career was such that I was in the United States Navy from June of 1991 until June of 2001. In that time I served in a Special Unit called SEAL Team 9.

We were trained primarily to use us as an asset to control and handle Tomahawk missiles, Cruise missiles that were used inside the Persian Gulf region in the Middle East throughout the timeframe of 1992 to 2000, to my knowledge.

And those missiles were used in a capacity similar to what people would understand how drones are used today both as intelligence-gathering, but obviously the end game with Tomahawk missiles was to blow something up at the end of the flight.

So that’s what we would do… over a secure link. We would get the equipment ready, wait for the Tomahawk missile to come inbound, sync up with the missile and then control it through its terminal phase of flight.

And then after detonation we would do bomb damage assessment and then get out of the area quiet as ghosts. Tomahawk Cruise missiles are usually sea-launched… [AUDIO SEEMS TO BE CUT OFF ABRUPTLY HERE]

KC: So from that point on, you’re in 1995 and you’re still being called out. When you’re not doing these assignments, these once-a-month assignments, you are on the ship doing other jobs?

BW: Yeah. We were perfectly capable of fixing regular radar weapons equipment and weapons platforms. I worked on one very specifically called Close-In Weapons System.

I also worked with the Harpoon Weapons System, the Five-Inch Gun Weapons System and the AEGIS Weapon System.

So, on an Early Bird Class Destroyer I was qualified to take care of a lot of equipment, which came in handy. [Laughs]

KC: Okay and so you were… and I guess… did you enlist?

BW: Yes.

KC: Okay, so this was a choice.

BW: Yes. There was no draft at that point, everybody that was in the military was there of their free choosing.

KC: Okay and I know this is slightly a digression, but you chose the military – why?

BW: I come from a military family. My uncle was a Command Master Chief in the Navy and retired after thirty years.

I believe he made it up as high as somewhere between the third and the fifth-highest ranking enlisted person in the Navy while he was there.

And when I was very young, I got to ride on the USS Missouri when it was re-commissioned and I was pretty addicted after that! [Laughs]

KC: Okay… that being a ship?

BW: Yes. It was one of the eight battleships that were re-commissioned shortly before the first Gulf War.

KC: Okay. And did you have other members of the family that were also in the military, or just your uncle?

BW: My brother was in the military, the US Navy, at the same time I was. And a cousin, my uncle’s son, was in the Navy also at the same time that I was.

KC: But not your father?

BW: Not my father, no.

KC: Okay. Well from this point on, 1995, you start noticing there’s a change in targets. I mean do you really think there was a change or do you think that your perception for some reason changed?

BW: No, there was definitely a change.

When you couple the seemingly insignificant aspects of the targets and evolve that with the amount of overkill that we were using when we would use these small buildings as targets, it would be what I would term as a massive [With EMPHASIS] amount of overkill.

It was when that started happening that we began to ask questions about: Is the intelligence correct? Are we getting the right information? Why are we going after these, you know, tiny targets with massive amounts of ordinance?

KC: Okay and in many cases it sounds like you didn’t work in cities. As I think we talked about, you seemed to be on the fringes – in the country, and what you’re talking about a small… really small villages?

BW: Small villages, out-of-the-way places. In that part of the world, that’s how most of the rural population lives. Large cities tend to be, you know, relatively obscure in any part of the country except for, maybe, the capital.

KC: Okay. So at this point, it’s 1995. What happens to… is there any incident that specifically happens at this time?

BW: It progresses up to April of ’97 when we were out on a mission, and like I was telling you about the dual Tomahawk missiles. Normally it wasn’t a big deal.

They would come in right behind each other; it would be boom-boom and there wouldn’t be many issues.

But in April of ’97 I had an incident where the second missile came in five minutes [EMPHASIZED] late and I was faced with the prospect of hundreds of people pouring through the debris of the first Tomahawk missile, being right on top of where the second Tomahawk missile was going to be designated.

It would have killed hundreds of innocent rescue workers if I re-designated that target five minutes later. I had an aspect of conscience that made it, so I chose not to detonate the second missile on top of those rescue workers.

That was against standing orders and got me in a lot of trouble.

KC: Okay, so… but can you describe it in a little more; fill in the blanks, you know, for the people that are listening? Because this was a village in Northern Iraq, was it not?

BW: Correct.

KC: And then also describe, you know, maybe a little bit more, blow by blow that incident and what you did with the missile.

BW: When the first detonation went off, it took out a small two-story building that was kind of set off away from most of the other area.

When the missile did detonate, a huge number of people from the surrounding village came in to go through the debris and find any survivors and help people that were injured, because there was a large amount of collateral damage in and around the building as well.

Smaller buildings, homes, were knocked over or torn to bits and there were a lot of injured people…

KC: So… and what you’re saying was that the impulse of the townspeople when any building is targeted is… afterwards, is to rush into sort of deal with the wounded or handle the situation, right?

BW: Correct. Yes. And that was normal from my experiences to see people go in after the detonation and do what they could to help the people that were inside or help the people that were hurt outside.

KC: Okay. And so at that point, what happened?

BW: At that point, I made the decision not to detonate the Tomahawk on its designated target and I flew it safely off into a mountain and detonated it there where it didn’t hurt anybody.

KC: Okay. And what people need to understand is that you were completely in charge of the controls at that point, right?

BW: Yes.

KC: So it wasn’t the other two people that you were working with that necessarily agreed with that decision, this was your own decision?

BW: This was my own decision and there was nothing that the other two people could have done to make it happen because there was just no time in between when they realized something was up and then the missile was destroyed instantly after that.

KC: Okay.

BW: Certainly they realized afterwards what I’d done and that it wasn’t going to go good when we got home.

KC: All right. And at this point you were in Northern Iraq?

BW: Yes.

KC: And how far away from the place of detonation, so to speak, were you?

BW: That time we were probably two miles away.

KC: Uh-huh, but you had line of sight as you call it?

BW: Yes. We always tried to get up as high as possible and extend line of sight as far as we could — didn’t need to get close, so we tried not to. [Laughs]

KC: Okay. And as far as that goes, what do you use for line of sight… just out of curiosity? Were you using some specialized equipment in order to see the target area?

BW: ‘The box’ as we called it would use a narrow-band microwave frequency that was encrypted to sync up with the missile when it came into line of sight. The reason we would use that type of communication is because it was hard to interrupt or jam.

KC: Okay but… so your visual was good, is that what you’re saying?

BW: Well, we would have visual of the target, but I would also have visual of the target via the camera in the Tomahawk, so I could fly it via the camera.

KC: Oh really, so you actually were riding… in a sense riding along with the missile when it went to its target?

BW: Mm-hmm… yeah.

KC: Wow.

BW: The fact that there were cameras in Tomahawk missiles was Ultra Top Secret.

Then I happened to notice when we were launching Tomahawks on Libya just last year that they showed the camera picture from the Tomahawk and I just wondered if most people knew how many things they saw on TV ten years ago were Ultra Top Secret! [Laughs]

KC: Yeah. Well no, I think that that’s important for people to realize is that what’s happening right now is that we have an asymmetrical war being conducted just as it was back then.

The difference, I think, is that some of these incidents do get reported in the news; we do hear about the US, for example, attacking in areas of Pakistan, areas of Syria, from what I understand — periodically, right?

BW: Mm hm. Yes and a lot of that information doesn’t come from journalists or news reporters; it comes from assets that I would say are doing what they can to fight for their country even though they work for the military.

KC: Okay. Okay… to try and get the word out as to what our government is actually up to.

BW: I believe the proper term is whistle-blowers! [Laughs]

KC: [Laughs] Okay. 48:57Hee-rah as they say or whatever!?

So what happened…? Okay, so this happened and then what happened when you returned or what was the trajectory?

BW: Nothing per se happened when I returned, but a month after that incident I found myself facing a general court-martial for unrelated charges.

KC: Okay. So you literally went back to base and there was no repercussions, no one said: What did you do with the other missile? Why did you fly it off-target?

BW: Oh, during de-brief — I mean, there were some very upset people and Why did you do…? And many, many, many conversations with many different people about it, saying exactly what I said to the person before them.

But I was adamant that it was a mission gone bad and I wasn’t going to kill a whole bunch of rescue workers. And I thought [With EMPHASIS] it was left at that.

KC: So you continued to be called on assignments after that, right? You and your team?

BW: I didn’t go on another mission before I was facing court-martial, no.

KC: And what was the period of time between those two things?

BW: It was a month, or less.

KC: Oh, so you immediately were… it’s pretty much…

BW: Yes.

KC: I mean, one month of down time and then you were called into court-martial.

BW: Hmm-hmm.

KC: Okay and that was for what?

BW: That was for what they said was child rape, which… it definitely was not true! [Laughs]

KC: Okay. So basically, you’re based on a boat, you know, a ship, from 1992 until this time which was ’97?

BW: Yes, I was based on a ship, but realize that we weren’t always on a ship and we weren’t always in the Persian Gulf.

KC: Okay. So was this on leave, an incident that happened when you were on leave?

BW: This was an incident that happened two years earlier when we were back in home port in San Diego.

KC: Okay, and just to summarize that quickly, the situation was what?

BW: The situation, what actually happened, was I found myself in a situation where I was having consensual sex with a sixteen year old girl when I was twenty five years old – not what they characterized it in my court martial as! [Laughs]

KC: Okay, so she was sixteen, but you thought… but even that was under age? I don’t even know what the laws are.

BW: Well, the laws in California at the time were that sixteen and seventeen year olds could consent.

That law has since changed. Now it’s a misdemeanor for sixteen and seventeen year olds to have sex with people over the age of eighteen, which is why I didn’t get charged in the civilian community; I was charged via court-martial.

KC: Okay. So they went back two years prior and charged you and did you know why? Like… I mean you basically put two and two together and figured that they were targeting you somehow.

Can you describe what the rationale is on the part of the military and how they… you explained how they kind of have something on each person?

BW: Well, the rationale is obvious. If the military has something they can use against you, which in my particular case was obvious, they can not only use the situation, but blow it completely out of proportion.

And in the military justice system there is no real recourse to being able to prove yourself innocent of charges. More typically, you’re found guilty long before you ever make it into your court-martial.

You don’t have the right of a jury of your peers. Your jury consists of military personnel that are senior to you in rank and that have an overwhelming desire to protect their career over what they decide in your court-martial.

KC: So, in other words, they’re sort of conditioned to find you guilty regardless because that works in their favor?

BW: Absolutely, because if you go into a room being told by somebody that’s in authority over you that a person is guilty, it’s nearly impossible to be an impartial juror at that point. I think Bradley Manning could tell us all about that! [Laughs]

[About Bradley Manning: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Manning ]

KC: Okay. Yeah. No, that’s pertinent actually. Okay. So at this point, you’ve actually, you know, gone against orders, they decided they want to pull you back into rank or whatever you call that – rank and file – so what did happen then?

BW: Shortly after I was charged, I was contacted by my Seal Team Lead Officer who was a Lieutenant and he gave me the option of rolling the dice and facing my court-martial and pretty much guaranteeing that I would spend eleven years in Leavenworth, .

Or I could take a slap on the wrist, plead guilty to something completely innocuous, go back to work, do my job as a good sailor would, blow up targets with Tomahawk missiles and not say anything about it to anybody. That’s what I chose to do.

KC: And you also suggested that they sort of had something on the other members of your team as well?

BW: I believe they had something on every member of our team because we all had at least one skeleton that we all knew about, so it was definitely something that would make it so they could pick and choose and destroy the life and career of any member of our team and easily get away with it.

KC: Okay. If for some reason, one of them decided not to follow orders or be insubordinate in some fashion?

BW: Correct, or something similar to what I did! [Laughs]

KC: Okay. All right. So when you did what you did, did you have the sympathy… assuming that everyone found about it, did you have the sympathy not only of the people, you know, the two on your team, but other team members? Or was there, you know, were they not sympathetic?

BW: Yes and no. Really, the only two people that had all the information were the two people that were on my team. We were fairly well compartmentalized from each other.

The other members of the other two teams got the military’s version of the story long before they ever heard mine, so when you’re given the military version and the guy you know’s version, it’s very conflicting.

And I’m sure most people saw it for exactly what it was, but at the same time didn’t want to believe anything but the military version, because they don’t want to think about the reality, if my version was the true version.

KC: Okay, because what your version in essence said was that not only was two Tomahawk missiles overkill to begin with, but that on top of it, these were soft targets and that the targets in and of themselves were suspicious, right?

BW: Correct. And basically, hammering me let everybody else know in the group that all the complaining, and all of the trying to, you know, bring out the reality of what was happening was not appreciated; it didn’t matter.

It made every member of the team feel like they ultimately had a gun to their head and free will wasn’t an option. Just do your job. Don’t think.

KC: So what happened at this point? You accepted the deal and then what happened?

BW: I accepted the deal, I pled guilty to a charge of unlawful carnal knowledge of a minor, I swear… very Van Halen but… [Laughs]

KC: Okay.

BW: …and went back to work under the guise that I was in jail. Everybody that I was related to or that was involved in the court martial was told that I pled guilty and went to jail.

What actually happened was I pled guilty, got on an airplane and proceeded to spend the next three years in the Persian Gulf doing my job.

KC: Okay. Interesting. So you’re saying the civilian world… is that what you’re talking about?

BW: Yes.

KC: The civilian world heard you were charged with this and pled guilty?

BW: Mmm-hmm.

KC: Okay, so then you went back to work and you were basically… so then at that point what happened? I mean you started… continued to target soft targets?

BW: At that point it was fairly obvious that we were the team that would get the hardest targets, not militarily hard but the hardest to blow up.

KC: Meaning the softest targets?

BW: The softest targets, the one they were most obviously not military assets, not worth the amount of explosives that we were using.

At that point the targets became plainly obvious that it was a terrorist-based mission and the reasons that we used the missiles and the explosives and where we targeted was to scare people and not to blow things up.

KC: Okay, but you did blow things up.

BW: Yeah but… it was not… The destruction wasn’t the main mission, the main mission was to scare the people that survived and get them talking and… [long pause, searching for words]

KC: Was it to turn them…? I guess I’m kind of…

It’s interesting because at that point they have, like, a captive audience, so to speak, in you guys, such that they can do whatever they want with you, and you can’t complain, you can’t object, because you’re sort of under a certain level of coercion to be quiet, right?

And do your job…

BW: Right.

KC: …regardless of what they ask you to do, so they can really sort of run you all over the country doing whatever they want. But how does this sort of state-sponsored terrorism, as it were…

BW: Mm hm.

KC: …facilitate an agenda? Do you know how it links up?

BW: I can see it more properly in hindsight now, but it’s very easy to understand.

What we were doing was creating the problem. When enough people are left behind with enough dead and injured relatives that strapping a bomb on themselves, and, you know, doing a suicide mission seems very reasonable.

KC: After you have been targeted by…? [OVERTALK]

BW: After your mother, your father, your wife, your sisters, your brothers, your sons and your daughters, are killed in a Tomahawk missile attack.

KC: Which they knew would be an American attack, right?

BW: They knew better than anybody that they were American missile attacks.

KC: Okay.

BW: Most Iraqis were well aware of Tomahawk missiles; what they did; how they did it, and more importantly, how many people they killed.

KC: Okay.

BW: It was a BIG DEAL [Slowly with EMPHASIS] to them. They didn’t like that terrorism.

KC: So in a sense, it was homegrown terrorism being bred out of these incidents…

BW: Correct.

KC: …that the U.S. was actually creating the problem, as you rightly said.

BW: Correct. That also coupled with our occupation of bases in Saudi Arabia. Plenty [of] people in Saudi Arabia were very, very unhappy about us being there long after the first Gulf War.

KC: This is 1997; you’ve been called back on duty.

BW: Mm hm.

KC: And you said for the next three years, you’re given targets that are highly suspicious, and basically, we are creating terrorists that will facilitate the so-called ‘War on Terror,’ by actually manifesting that ourselves.

BW: Correct.

I can unequivocally say that the targets that we were given and the way we were used was solely for the purpose of creating massive amounts of fear in the general public of northern Iraq; rumors and stories of which filtered all throughout the Middle East.

Definitely in 1998, I would say that the average Middle Eastern person knew for sure that the U.S. military was targeting civilians under the guise of combating terrorism.

KC: At that point your sort of mental state must not have been great, right?

BW: No, I was very distant and dark. I was only able to deal with the fact that I had to do what I did because I knew that the consequences would just put me in jail.

KC: Would you say that that was true of the other team members as well?

BW: Certainly everybody was well aware of my situation after that and my situation coupled with the targets and the evolution of what we were doing, as far as warfare, was plainly obvious to everybody that was performing missions.

KC: Okay. So what happened then, at that point?

BW: Basically we continued on and continued on to go after these soft targets and do our jobs and not really say anything. That climaxed in December of 2000 for me and my group.

During the time that we operated in northern Iraq we found certain groups of indigenous population that we would consider assets and would use on a semi-regular basis to accomplish our missions.

In turn, we would help the indigenous people of the villages with food, water, ammunition, protection [and] intelligence — give them what we could to pay them back for the kindness that they offered us when we needed help.

KC: Okay, and these individuals or the villages where you were finding shelter, so to speak, were they among Kurds, or among Shiites?

BW: Kurds and Shiites. Sunni sect wouldn’t help us.

KC: All right.

BW: But the Shiites and the Kurds, they were more than happy to try and do something positive for their country, to try and help the U.S. military.

So eventually, the dictatorship that existed in the country would eventually fall and they would have democracy and freedom. That’s what they believed.

KC: That’s the rationale that they were sold, so to speak.

BW: Umm… yeah. [Hesitating] I mean, it wasn’t propaganda. It was more of a choice between the lesser or two evils; I guess is the easiest way to say it.

KC: So this went on until 2000, and then what happened?

BW: In December of 2000 we came back to a village that we were using as an asset, and on the mission before this one we had gotten intelligence from the village elder that described an imminent attack on U.S. soil that involved pilots.

Did not understand what the information meant, but we took it back to base, and reported it, and didn’t think much of it. Later, or very soon after that, we went on another mission, came back to the village, and discovered that the village was destroyed in a Tomahawk missile attack.

At that point we were psychologically broken, as to how we were being used and the obviousness of that village being destroyed. There was no military significance whatsoever in destroying the village. There were probably 30, 35 people, and no permanent structures other than… three?

KC: Initially. And so…

BW: Before it was destroyed.

KC: Right.

BW: These people lived very simple lives. They were very nomadic and detached, and there would be no reason whatsoever to bomb that particular target unless the information that we obtained was significant.

KC: But you didn’t bomb them.

BW: No it was another one… it was another team that knew of [With EMPHASIS] the village but when they destroyed the village they didn’t know who they were bombing. They were told lies.

KC: Okay, and this is in theory one of the teams of The Nine?

BW: It was one of the other teams in SEAL Team 9 and I know which team it was. When we got back home from the mission, I actually got into a violent altercation with the person on that team who does the job that I do for my team.

And it sent shockwaves through The Nines. It really fractured things and tore us apart. In my estimation it was probably either the end of the end or the beginning of the end of the SEAL Team 9 program and its mission.

Certainly at that time we were seeing the evolution of drones come online, and more and more often we were being assigned drones as assets so we were aware of them and their capabilities on missions.

And shortly after that, drones became weapons-based platforms and they started using the more much humane Hellfire missile to accomplish the goals that we were accomplishing with Tomahawk missiles attacks.

KC: When you say much more humane, are you joking?

BW: Ah… tongue in cheek. A Hellfire missile has a 25-pound warhead. A Tomahawk missile has a 250-pound warhead.

Yes, a drone can minimize collateral damage; however, we are where we are today, and we know that there are lots of collateral damage with drone-based missile attacks.

KC: Okay. Yeah, I didn’t even realize that drones were military, you know, equipped to… I thought they were simply surveillance.

BW: Most people don’t. It’s not one of those well-advertised things that our media keeps us up on.

KC: Right. Okay. So at this point you basically had what you call an altercation with the individual who bombed this group of people who had been giving you guys shelter, who in a sense… it’s almost like, I don’t know if you, you know, it’s like a shelter or a home base for you guys…

BW: Huh hum.

KC: …in this small village, right?

BW: Yes.

KC: So the village is destroyed?

BW: It wasn’t a home base. It was an asset that we used in a military sense, but at the same time we developed an emotional connection to the people of the village.

We knew who they were, we knew what they were about, we knew the basic-ness of their living and how they went about. And destroying that village and killing all of those people was unnecessary and sad. [With EMPHASIS]

KC: Okay. So at this point what happened within your… sort of, when you attacked the person did you almost kill him?

BW: Yeah, I got into a fight with a… did go overboard and the physical violence was enough to put him in the hospital and threaten his life. I’m pretty sure the only reason I was able to do that level of damage is because that person didn’t fight back.

Certainly we’re evenly matched as far as hand-to-hand weapons or combat at any other given time. The fact that I almost killed him doesn’t seem possible unless he felt guilty and just didn’t fight back.

KC: Okay. So at that point what happened?

BW: At that point it was pretty obvious to the ‘powers that be’ that I was never going to be able to be used in the capacity that I was being used anymore.

I was never going to be able to designate missile attacks and kill people, so I was taken out of service and put in a psychological hospital for 6 months.

I spent most of my time in a drug-induced haze/coma experiencing wild hallucinations, paranoia, and treatment programs that focused my mind solely on fear, distorted reality and believing in a bunch of things that were only manifesting themselves because of the drugs, the hallucinogens, the psychotropics.

KC: So they were basically messing with you at that point through, would you call it mind control techniques?

BW: I would more correctly characterize it as mind destruction.

KC: Uh huh.

BW: Or psychological destruction, from stripping me from all reality, as far as, you know, up and down, left, right. Perception became something that was very fluid and could be influenced very easily.

KC: Okay, so and this went on for 6 months, did you say?

BW: Six months. Toward the end of the 6 months the drugs stopped, I came out of my “cloud,” I guess is the best way to put it, and was told that I was being released from the military and that everything was going to be fine.

And that they just made the decision that I was at my ten-year mark, which was when I was supposed to get out of the military. I was pretty happy about that, especially after the 6 months of what I would easily classify as torture.

KC: Right.

BW: I would have done anything [With EMPHASIS] to get out of that. [Laughs]

KC: I understand. Would you say though that… and you alluded to this off camera, the coincidence is a bit sort of mind bending, if you will, that you actually got out on your supposed planned release date…

BW: Correct.

KC: … had none of these other altercations, etcetera, etcetera, happened along the way.

BW: Well, according to my court-martial, I should have spent 11 years in prison. According to paperwork that I have, I spent exactly 3 years and 1 month in prison and got out at exactly the time I would have gotten out if I would have otherwise been discharged.

So, two questions I would ask, is: Do we normally let people out 8 years early? And: Do we normally pay them while they’re in prison?

I don’t think those would be easy questions for anybody to answer inside the military right now. And I’ve proven that since I’ve gotten out.

KC: All right. You know, there are so many avenues we could go down and I did ask you to watch the video of Duncan O’Finioan, which you weren’t familiar with prior to our interview.

BW: No, didn’t know he even existed prior to you mentioning it.

KC: Okay, and do you want to say your reaction to seeing that?

BW: My reaction would be mostly based on my perspective and what I know, and in a word, the things that I heard and the information that he gave were eerily similar to many, many aspects of my training.

It was quite spooky, the things that he went through and the things that I went through, how strangely they coincided. I understand completely why you would bring it up because they are, for all intents and purposes, parallel paths that we both experienced on some level.

KC: At this point you got out of the military. What happened then?

BW: I got out in June of ’01. I went back home to Salt Lake City, Utah, and got a construction job, and was going to be completely content putting all of my military past behind me and moving on with my life.

On September 11th, however, that thought process got majorly interrupted when the Twin Towers were attacked, the Pentagon and another flight was hijacked.

It was at that point, based on my experience, that I looked at the events of 9/11 and drew much, much different conclusions about the whys and wherefores of the event and [had] some major, major problems with the popular story…

KC: I see.

BW: …based on what happened. Certainly if you’re the guy that for 8 years drove planes into buildings, you might see the correlation between somebody coming back and doing it to us.

KC: When you’re saying “drove planes into the buildings,” you’re actually referring to the Tomahawk missile as a kind of a plane?

BW: A Tomahawk missile flies like an airplane, it acts like an airplane; it can be controlled with normal airplane controls. It has wings, it has tail fins, it has a rudder and it has a jet engine. It sounds like a jet.

It would be hard, based on the fact that they fly very low to the ground and they fly very fast, to get a good look at it enough to be able to tell it from typical airline plane to a Tomahawk missile. Certainly all anybody would get is a glimpse.

KC: Okay, and basically you also talked about the… you know, because they said there was a missile that hit the Pentagon, that it wasn’t a plane, and you actually have some very good evidence in a sense to substantiate that that was much more likely to be a Tomahawk missile.

BW: Correct. The best information out there in my opinion is a documentary called Loose Change. It tells out all the information in much, much greater detail than I can express it.

But the one important thing that I noticed was the turn that the airliner supposedly made before it actually hit the Pentagon.

That turn would be almost impossible to make with a 757. You want to fire up your flight simulator and fly all the controls that airplanes have and try to do it on a flight simulator, I think you would find that you crash the plane every time.

However, that turn was something that I had seen many, many, many times when I used that turn to overfly a target, come around, and hit it again after I had marked on top and verified that that indeed was the actual target with the inboard camera in the missile.

Also, where an airliner’s wings are particularly susceptible to damage and knocking over 5 light-poles would be an issue when you were trying to control the aircraft at low and slow like they were.

A Tomahawk missile’s wings are reinforced, aren’t filled with fuel and [are] very, very hardened surfaces that made it so if the missile is ever attacked, it can still fly into its target.

Certainly it could knock over 5 light-poles and not even blink before it hit the Pentagon.

The other eerie part about the whole situation is that it hit the Pentagon at the one area of the Pentagon that had just received reinforcement or an upgrade that made it the most reinforced part of the building, the part of the building that would be damaged least by an attack.

Couple that with the fact that there wasn’t any jet fuel blowing it up and that the wing span of an airplane driving into that building doesn’t match a 757.

You model a Tomahawk missile in its flight path, payload, wing span and all the other technicalities of it, I think you would find that the estimated damage of what that attack would cause to the Pentagon at that particular area would fit very nicely with the actual damage…

KC: Okay.

BW: …that happened to the Pentagon in that particular area.

KC: And the fact that they had evacuated or at least that a lot of people were not there, and that… Didn’t you also allude to the fact that it appeared that there was evidence that Cheney had been waiting for this in another part of the building?

BW: In the documentary Loose Change…

KC: Right.

BW: …it does have some pretty damning evidence that the vice president was well aware of the attack. Then again, you could look at the reaction of President Bush at the time that he was notified and realize too that somebody knew something ahead of time, that his reaction would be stereotypical of that, in my mind.

KC: What you also alluded to was the idea that you weren’t the only one who… or your group, your SEAL Team, weren’t the only ones that had received advance warning of 9/11 during the time prior to that, is that right?

BW: No, I would say most government agencies received some notification or some warning of the attack ahead of time. Certainly there is more than enough actual evidence out there today that’s as easy as getting on YouTube and doing a search to find.

After that I spent a lot of time and effort going back and connecting a bunch of little pieces of information that, if somebody was doing their job back then could have easily determined exactly what was going to happen and then prevent it.

KC: Okay, meaning you went back and looked at intelligence that had come in over the years? Or…?

BW: Not over the years, but over the weeks and months prior to 9/11.

KC: Okay. So at that point you’re in a situation where you have actually been sort of, as you call it, flying these planes into buildings using Tomahawk missiles.

BW: [Nods affirmatively] Mm hm.

KC: 9/11 happens, you suddenly… In a sense, that’s like a wakeup call, I would imagine.

BW: Oh, it was a HUGE wakeup call because now I knew what the incident in.